Band,
You name several sources, of whom I have only one on my bookshelf: Dominic Crossan (“Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography”).
I was unable to locate any comment in that book where he says forgery was acceptable to the primitive Christian church, so you will need to give me the location and context of his words.
Since I have no books by these other people you nominate, you will need to be kind enough to do the same for each of them. I have 45 years experience of seeing the WTS supposedly cite a source, only to discover that the source was being misrepresented or misquoted.
I have no real penchant for ringing people in USA, but it should be possible to ask this Prof. Pagels by email on his/her views on the acceptability of the bible’s forgeries. I would appreciate your providing his/her email address, since you appear to have ready contact.
Thanks,
Doug
Doug Mason
JoinedPosts by Doug Mason
-
22
True Authorship of New Testament
by QED inhi everyone.. i'm new here and this is the first time im posting.
about myself: i come from china and have been living in the uk.
5 years ago, i began to attend meetings and study the bible with jw in a chinese congregation, but never baptised.
-
-
Doug Mason
-
22
True Authorship of New Testament
by QED inhi everyone.. i'm new here and this is the first time im posting.
about myself: i come from china and have been living in the uk.
5 years ago, i began to attend meetings and study the bible with jw in a chinese congregation, but never baptised.
-
-
Doug Mason
Several NT writings were not penned by their alleged authors. This makes them forgeries, products of the intent to deceive.
It is beyond my belief that it would be said that the early Christian community tolerated forgery, fraud, and deceit. That would run counter to Jesus’ alleged words: “Watch out for deceivers”.
Today, forgery, misrepresentation, and deception are punishable as criminal, and there is no indication they were tolerated at the time the NT writings were created.
Earlier, the desire to root out such heinous practices resulted in the euphoria experienced by Archimedes. Today, forgery, fraud, and deceit can result in lengthy incarceration.
What would anyone say today should I write a book or article and then publish it with the claim that it was they who was the author? Utter outrage, at the very least. And deservedly so.
There is much evidence which identifies those canonised writings that were falsely identified as written by someone else. Why do people perpetuate the myth that these practices were acceptable to the early church?
It is quite ironic, yet revealing at the same time, that the forged writing now known as 2 Thessalonians, should warn people against forgeries that were being put out in Paul’s name: “We ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us .” (2 Thess. 2:1-2, NIV)
A revealing study, yet by no means unique, is “Forged: Writing in the Name of God – Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are”, Bart Ehrman.
Doug -
22
True Authorship of New Testament
by QED inhi everyone.. i'm new here and this is the first time im posting.
about myself: i come from china and have been living in the uk.
5 years ago, i began to attend meetings and study the bible with jw in a chinese congregation, but never baptised.
-
-
Doug Mason
Band,
I am not certain if your sensitivities were touched by my comments, or not. Please do not get personally offended by me, as none was ever intended.
My position is that no two of us has the same beliefs or understandings. These are moulded over the years through our many encounters, which we check against our pre-existing models. Many encounters will cause us to make adjustments to our models.
Often what we are hearing or reading, regardless of the impeccable source that it might be, often produces an outcome in the hearer or reader that the speaker or writer had never intended or even forseen.
You set out your qualifications, so I give you mine: University of Hard Knocks, Faculty of Life.
Doug
-
18
Whatever you do, arrive at 1914
by Doug Mason inthe wts claims that the length of babylons king nebuchadnezzars suppressed state symbolised the suppressed state of gods kingdom.
each day of the heathen kings lack of control represented a year of heathen supremacy.. .
since nebuchadnezzars experience was symbolic, it would have ended before the fulfilment started; unfortunately the hebrews scriptures do not specify that moment.
-
-
Doug Mason
The WTS claims that the length of Babylon’s King Nebuchadnezzar’s suppressed state symbolised the suppressed state of God’s Kingdom. Each day of the heathen king’s lack of control represented a year of heathen supremacy.
Since Nebuchadnezzar’s experience was symbolic, it would have ended before the fulfilment started; unfortunately the Hebrew’s Scriptures do not specify that moment. The WTS is not so backward, pinning the commencement of heathen supremacy over God’s Kingdom to two months after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, during the 19th year of his reign.
The king was mad for seven “times”, which is taken to mean seven “years”. Using the Revelation, even though the book was unknown to the people who wrote the book of Daniel, the WTS explains that each “time” was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar as a “year”. The “times” of Daniel actually refers to the fulfilment upon Nebuchadnezzar and not to any secondary fulfilment derived from Nebuchadnezzar’s fulfilment, as the WTS would have.
Looking at the first 19 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, Parker and Dubberstein identify the following additional (intercalary) months inserted: Ululu II (years 5, 10, 15, 19) and Addaru II (years 2, 7, 12). Depending on the year that his madness started, several years would have been extended by an extra 30 days during his first 19 years. Accepting that scenario would permit the WTS to easily shift their end-date by a few decades.
The WTS could have argued more reasonably that the suppressed state of Judah symbolised the suppressed state of God’s kingdom. Thus their 70 years of being punished would equate to a future low state of God’s Kingdom. This would mean that the fulfilment commenced some time after the 70 years had ended.
This means the symbolised period would have started some time after the Fall of Babylon. As it turns out, the precise date does not matter to us. Nor does it matter whether each year was 360 days long with the occasionally inserted intercalary month, or if each year was 365 days long. The minimum length of years would represent 25,200 years while the longer years would represent about 25,500 years. This highlights how ridiculous their concept is.
As the earth rushes towards 2014, what then should the WTS do? It will be faced with JWs living between the 100th anniversary of the start of the Great War (August 1) and the 100th anniversary of the start of their Kingdom Rule (October 1).
I suggest that the WTS’s Mind Controllers be locked in the Theocratic War Strategy Bunker to devise a replacement “Whatever you do, arrive at 1914” strategy. Perhaps they will rediscover one of the earlier reasonings, such as the use of Leviticus 26.
The problems they have with the interpretation of Daniel 4, their obviously wrong neo-Babylonian chronology, all need to be taken away and shoved into the bottom drawer, never to see daylight again. People will accept. Millions have already been taken in, so there is no reason the changes will prevent it continuing.
Doug -
163
The Trinity
by The Quiet One ini have a question, primarily for trinitarians, but anyone's more than welcome to comment.
what scriptural basis is there for believing in the trinity?
i can understand some having the view that jesus/jehovah both can be worshipped, and the view that jesus should be, but where in the bible is the holy spirit worshipped?
-
-
Doug Mason
Why is it that the people who deny the trinity have no problem in accepting the Canon (list of writings) of the NT that was drawn up by a Trinitarian?
His was not the only Canon produced during the centures before he lived. He made mistakes and he selected writings that supported his sector of The Church. His list was produced about the same time as his Trinity doctrine was adopted.
I see a great inconsistency.
Perhaps the following bigger question should be asked:
Rather than argue about the nature and format of God (whether known by names such as HWHY, ELOHIM, ALLAH, BAAL, or ZEUS), why should people believe anything at all that is written in ancient writings about super beings/entities?
Doug
-
14
539 BCE and an astronomical tablet
by Doug Mason inpage 453 of the wtss book, insight on the scriptures says that the eclipse records for the 7th year of cambyses can be used to calculate 539 bce for the fall of babylon.. to do this, the chronology article refers to j. n. strassmaier, f. x. kugler, t. oppolzer, and o. gingerich.. what did those people actually write?.
how does the wts manage to travel from the 7th year of cambyses to the date of the fall of babylon?.
http://www.jwstudies.com/539_bce_and_an_astronomical_tablet.pdf.
-
-
Doug Mason
Deist,
If I may be so bold as to speak on Lars' behalf he is not an apologist for either 607 or for 587/6.
He has his own agenda, which I will not enter into here today, since that would muddy the waters and introduce unwanted distractions.
Doug
-
14
539 BCE and an astronomical tablet
by Doug Mason inpage 453 of the wtss book, insight on the scriptures says that the eclipse records for the 7th year of cambyses can be used to calculate 539 bce for the fall of babylon.. to do this, the chronology article refers to j. n. strassmaier, f. x. kugler, t. oppolzer, and o. gingerich.. what did those people actually write?.
how does the wts manage to travel from the 7th year of cambyses to the date of the fall of babylon?.
http://www.jwstudies.com/539_bce_and_an_astronomical_tablet.pdf.
-
-
Doug Mason
Larry,
My main point, in my eyes anyway, is that the WTS does not make any computations of its own to determine the eclipse dates but accepts them on face value from the people it cited as the authorities. Yet it never again employs that process, presumably because they have the end point in view. This drives them to ridicule the sources it had relied on, which is gross dishonesty.
Second point is that they need a secular king list (such as Ptolemy) to be able to tavel to 539, and we know what they think of that.
Thirdly, by listing these authorities but without telling the JWs what these sources are really saying, the WTS is playing foul.
Three out of three is not nice.
Doug
-
14
539 BCE and an astronomical tablet
by Doug Mason inpage 453 of the wtss book, insight on the scriptures says that the eclipse records for the 7th year of cambyses can be used to calculate 539 bce for the fall of babylon.. to do this, the chronology article refers to j. n. strassmaier, f. x. kugler, t. oppolzer, and o. gingerich.. what did those people actually write?.
how does the wts manage to travel from the 7th year of cambyses to the date of the fall of babylon?.
http://www.jwstudies.com/539_bce_and_an_astronomical_tablet.pdf.
-
-
Doug Mason
Larry,
You are sitting by the side of the River Euphrates, enjoying the peace. Suddenly some nearby children excitedly say they have discovered a clay tablet with some scratches on it.
Putting your pith hat on, magnifying glass in hand, you quickly see that it is an ancient astronomical tablet.
"Please Sir! Please Sir!", the little children excitedly call out, "What is the date of it so that we can understand?"
You tell them that even though the name of the king has been chipped off, you are still able to tell them the date in terms of the Julian Calendar, and likely will even be able to work out the king's name.
So with little children sitting in a half-circle in front of you, computer left at the hotel, you explain the method, step by little step, so simply that they will all understand.
Doug
-----------
This competition is open to others, with a guaranteed prize to each who enters.
Once you have provided the children with the sequence, you are entitled to go to the nearest shop and buy yourself a Mars Bar. (If there are Babylonian Bars or Lunar Bars in your district, the choice is yours)
-
22
True Authorship of New Testament
by QED inhi everyone.. i'm new here and this is the first time im posting.
about myself: i come from china and have been living in the uk.
5 years ago, i began to attend meetings and study the bible with jw in a chinese congregation, but never baptised.
-
-
Doug Mason
PS,
I wonder whether the Gnostic Christians were able to influence the formation of the final Canon. Some of the NT writings directly confront that later emerging "heresy".
It is wonderful that we are still able to read a lot of the writings that were omitted from the canon formulated by the trinitarian Athanasius, and to see the contemporary alternative canons: "Lost Scriptures: Books that did not make it into the New Testament", Bart Ehrman.
Doug
-
22
True Authorship of New Testament
by QED inhi everyone.. i'm new here and this is the first time im posting.
about myself: i come from china and have been living in the uk.
5 years ago, i began to attend meetings and study the bible with jw in a chinese congregation, but never baptised.
-
-
Doug Mason
"It was not fraudulent in its day. Using someone's name to show how special your work was common."
This is a myth, and is not suppported by factual evidence, even from Paul's genuine writings.
I highly recommend that you get hold of Bart Ehrman's book, "Forged".
Doug